price check - improved toughness

A place for rules questions to be posted. Rules questions should be asked here, not in OOC chat or FPMs. The DM's will answer whenever they can. Rules questions are not our focus, so it may take some time for questions to be responded to. Please be patient.

Moderator: Dungeon Masters

price check - improved toughness

Postby tachus » Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:01 am

how much would it cost to add the ability of such a feat to an item?

specifically if added to a amulet of con +2....
"Oderint Dum Metuant" - Emperor Caligula

"Experience is not what happens to a man; It is what a man does with what happens to him." - Aldous Huxley

PCs: Sambiir TaKorc-Wands, Vairc Delvaux, Kell Ironclaw, Zander Stormwave
User avatar
tachus
 
Posts: 514
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:13 am
Location: Virginia

Re: price check - improved toughness

Postby Stam » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:34 am

Remember the primary rule here: Do Thy Research, and thus Speed Thy Approval.

So, a question. Is this equivalent to a Con score boost, or better than it, or more akin to a Temp HP?

A Con score boost kicks up your Concentration skill and Fort save as well, but is vulnerable to Con damage. Improved Toughness doesn't boost anything but HP, but also can't be removed by Con damage. And it doesn't function like Temp HP (those are lost first and foremost and can't be healed), but I think that's the closest approximation you will find in existing items for a price approximation.
User avatar
Stam
 
Posts: 1763
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:50 pm

Re: price check - improved toughness

Postby Murdling » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:49 am

It's also a Feat with no other Feat prereqs which I think was ballparked at what.. 8k for most cases?
User avatar
Murdling
 
Posts: 475
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:52 pm
Location: Michigan, Bay City

Re: price check - improved toughness

Postby Stam » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:55 am

Murdling wrote:It's also a Feat with no other Feat prereqs which I think was ballparked at what.. 8k for most cases?

Not quite. It has a prerequisite - Base Fort save of +2 or better.
User avatar
Stam
 
Posts: 1763
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:50 pm

Re: price check - improved toughness

Postby Ian » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:04 am

Murd: The very basic rule of thumb on pricing feats (absent any additional factors, obviously), is 5,000 gp, +5,000 gp for each feat pre-requisite, +2,500 gp for each non-feat prerequisite.

Very basic is obviously emphasized; prerequisites of "base attack bonus +1" and "caster level 12th" are clearly not equal, and feats with such would not be priced equally. (That's Weapon Finesse and Extraordinary Spell Aim for the uninitiated.) Also, some feats clearly aren't worth even 5K gold--see pricing on magical item location powers in Cityscape for examples.

I think we've allowed Improved Toughness at 7,500 gp with the following considerations/caveats:
1. If you buy the amulet of tears pricing as accurate (I think it's a skosh low), +1 daily THP is roughly 100 gp, making it 2,000 gp for the equivalent THP to this item at level 20. The ability to heal back that damage is huge, though (even disregarding the other benefits/drawbacks to a lack of affect on the CON score proper), and a boost to 7,500 gp for that is not out of line to my mind.
2. We've informally stipulated that, as an item, it doesn't stack with itself. If someone was interested in using it to stack, we'd probably tighten up the verbiage and go with quadratic pricing for extra layers, but it hasn't been a thing so far.
3. It has item slot affiliations as per a CON-booster.
User avatar
Ian
 
Posts: 1493
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:53 pm

Re: price check - improved toughness

Postby Stam » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:37 am

Ian wrote:2. We've informally stipulated that, as an item, it doesn't stack with itself. If someone was interested in using it to stack, we'd probably tighten up the verbiage and go with quadratic pricing for extra layers, but it hasn't been a thing so far.

If you could kindly consider this A Thing? It's about the only fashion under which a Green Star Adept who takes the capstone could be a viable PC option.

By way of possible comparison, the Chasuble of Fell Power has a starting point of 8k for the initial and 18k for the latter, and from that we extrapolated that the next point was 32k. (The premise there was based on weapon enhancement expansion, but it's still the kind of layering D&D treats as normal.)
User avatar
Stam
 
Posts: 1763
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:50 pm

Re: price check - improved toughness

Postby Murdling » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:39 pm

Maybe this could make some sense math wise.

Call the base price 5000 + 2500 - exactly what it actually is. (Convenient, that.)

Expanded amounts something like 5000 + (2500 x Hp/Hit Die^2)

Results are
7,500 for +1
15,000 for +2
27,500 for +3
45,000 for +4

Comparison point: Straight CON boost would afford it at every 2nd degree, and also adds the Concentration boost and Fort save benefits. Those price in at:

4,000 for +2
16,000 for +4
36,000 for +6

Meaning the first one is pricier than it's counterpart mostly due to the starting premium, but it quickly falls slightly behind price wise which is probably where it belongs. Though we could always arbitrarily alter the +1 Imp Toughness item to cost more around 3,000 or so if we don't mind breaking from the usual feat duplication costs.
User avatar
Murdling
 
Posts: 475
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:52 pm
Location: Michigan, Bay City

Re: price check - improved toughness

Postby Stam » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:08 am

Revisiting this with a fuzzy head, my gut call was that each iteration of Improved Toughness is probably worth ~75% of a +2 to Con.

The Con booster modifies several things beyond HP (Fort save, Concentration checks, drowning duration) but is vulnerable to Con damage and drain.

The Improved Toughness is just an added bag of HP which is totally unrelated to the Con score. It modifies nothing else, but doesn't go away when your Con score is damaged.

This would suggest appropriate pricing scale would be 3k/12k/27k for iterations, which would provide +1/+2/+3 HP per level and would explicitly stack with the feat. (If you invested a feat that you can never get back into Improved Toughness, there is no reason not to let you benefit again via item that cost gold and can be removed.) I'd recommend it not be able to go beyond +3 pre-Epic, as that's an added 60 HP all by itself, but if a +4 is allowed then that would go for 48k.

This is also interestingly close to Murd's price list above.

Edited to add: Initial starting price may be too low. Perhaps add a flat base cost to the initial item to compensate, and either leave the other iterations where they stand or boost them by a similar amount.
User avatar
Stam
 
Posts: 1763
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:50 pm

Re: price check - improved toughness

Postby Kemian » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:20 pm

If you read up in the forum I believe we have already established the base price for such and item at 7500 GP. So...you would need to start there and move upward Stam.
User avatar
Kemian
 
Posts: 968
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:34 am

Re: price check - improved toughness

Postby Stam » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:45 pm

If you assume 6k for your base item instead of 7.5k, that would give quadratic results of 24k and 54k for your +2/lvl and +3/lvl, respectively. I think both of those are overpriced?

I don't see an easy way out here. Unless you want to go 7.5k and then slide over to one of the other scales, with the first one being an entry-level premium to keep it away from being low fruit?
User avatar
Stam
 
Posts: 1763
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:50 pm

Re: price check - improved toughness

Postby Kemian » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:58 pm

An additional note, any item like this would very likely max out at +3 HP per level. (After all we only allow a +6 Ability booster item).
User avatar
Kemian
 
Posts: 968
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:34 am


Return to Rules Questions & Answers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron