Help with creating a non-Bob the fighter PC

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Help with creating a non-Bob the fighter PC

Postby Shamsy » Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:18 pm

Hey all!

I love to tell a good story, write a history, dabble with backgrounds, create a unique personality... but I am under no illusions that I neither enjoy or am very good at the technical side of builds in D&D. I was chatting today about plans for my beloved rogue... which ultimately made me realise that he's going to be of little to no use much over 10th level. I'd like to get him to 20th, but might need some help with this!

I'm doing a basic rogue build up to 7th. Nothing fancy. I'm also trying to make an archer, though I've been told that might not be the best option if I ever want to play with the big kids. Any assistance with PRC, feats or items that might help would be greatly appreciated. So far I have a bunch of archery feats, not a lot else, so if there are 4 feats needed to make a class... chances are it's too late. I had planned to straight rogue build, but would be open to suggestions.

Thanks!
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Re: Help with creating a non-Bob the fighter PC

Postby Murdling » Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:55 pm

If you want to keep things simple check the gestalt feats from Complete Adventurer and Complete Scoundrel out.

There's stuff in there for combining a lot of features from classes. Some notable ones.

Rogue/Monk
Rogue/Swashbuckler
Fighter/Swashbuckler

Etc- there's a lot
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Re: Help with creating a non-Bob the fighter PC

Postby Stam » Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:15 pm

Seems like if you already have a bunch of Rogue levels, taking them up further is not a bad choice. However...

Take 3 levels in Scout, timed so the third coincides with L12. Pick up Swift Ambusher. Grab a fourth level of Scout if any of the feats particularly call to you. Presto! You are now a mobile archer whose damage output has meaning even if you don't have Sneak Attack qualifications that round.

Then go back to Rogue. Cherry-pick Special Abilities. Your Skirmish damage will continue to climb.

While you're doing all this, pile up feats to get Manyshot and Greater Manyshot. It's the latter you really want, since it'll let you get multiple instances of sneak attack/skirmish while moving instead of just one attack.
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Re: Help with creating a non-Bob the fighter PC

Postby Murdling » Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:18 pm

If you do what Stam suggested don't forget Improved Skirmish (from C-Scoundrel) which adds 2d6 more Skirmish damage if you move 20 or more before attacking.
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Re: Help with creating a non-Bob the fighter PC

Postby Kemian » Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:54 am

I have mentioned before but I will once again mention, one way to be useful as a Rogue at higher levels is to maximize your Use Magic Device skill so that you can use wands to increase your damage output and also set battlefield conditions and apply status effects like Negative levels with a Wand of Enervation. You can also become a backup healer using Wands and later using Staves. Do not underestimate this utility, Our high level party just got through a long EL 18 adventure with no Cleric but with our Cleric in a Box tool kit and a Warlock with plenty of UMD.
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Re: Help with creating a non-Bob the fighter PC

Postby Ian » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:14 pm

Some good ideas in this thread already. Chipping in a few random thoughts:

- As Mark notes, Use Magic Device is the most versatile skill in the game. Since you get it as a class skill, you should target a +18 modifier (the highest meaningful modifier to a DC 20 check). If you want to use scrolls, you'll need to max UMD out due to scaling DC, but whether or not it's worth doing so is up to you. Focus on getting wands without a saving throw or SR check. Party buffs and battlefield-affecting spells are great to have handy when sneak attack fails you. Good cost-effective choices:
  • Battlefield-modification: Grease, Entangle, Briar Web
  • Self- and Party-Buffs: Bless, Mass Camouflage, Resist Energy (CL 7th or 11th), Mass Conviction (CL 6th), Blacklight (almost as good as Improved Invis at half the price)
  • Other: Cure Light/Lesser Vigor (cheapest per-point healing in the game), Summon Monster (versatility), Ray of Stupidity (auto-kill Animals and non-sentient Beasts)

- Consider the Thief-Acrobat prestige class from CAdv. It requires only 8 ranks in the four mobility-based skills (Balance, Climb, Jump, Tumble), and over five levels you get a +2 dodge bonus to AC and three of the Rogue 10+ special abilities (Improved Evasion, a hard-coded Skill Mastery, and Defensive Roll twice). As an archer, its other abilities enable you to get to out-of-reach places quickly and at less risk.

- Once you hit Rogue 10, look at Crippling Strike as your special ability. Strength damage isn't as good as Con damage, but it's still pretty damn handy, and 2 no-save points on every sneak attack will be felt in a hurry. Skill Mastery is also good, depending on how you're handling your skills, but is probably a better target for Rogue 13 given what you're doing.
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Re: Help with creating a non-Bob the fighter PC

Postby Jiriki » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:23 pm

Thief acrobat is useful (comp adventurer - 83)

Savvy (comp scoundrel - 80)

Swift Ambusher (comp scoundrel - 81)

Craven is useful (Champions of Ruin - 17)

Daring outlaw is useful (comp scoundrel - 76)


Just tossing in my tuppence worth.
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Re: Help with creating a non-Bob the fighter PC

Postby Ian » Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:01 pm

One more note, just as a general thing:

There tends to be a lot of OOC talk about the imbalance between classes and builds. It's true, but while relying on DMs to fix the problem has no place in general system development (*coughs significantly in WotC's direction*), that principle does come into play when we get to the nuts and bolts of playing here.

DMs and players alike tend to take special pains at higher levels to keep everyone on the same playing field. No DM wants to break PCs just because they haven't fully optimized their PCs, and no player wants to make everyone else feel bored and useless while they dominate the proceedings and roll over everything. It makes a few people feel bigger in their pants, but those people don't last long enough here to get to high levels anyway.

(Side note: this goes from the DMing perspective, too. Many people don't like running at high levels because challenging high-level PCs and accounting for class imbalance can be tough, but we have people that can help plan for those difficulties, and players are usually game to play along with things for the sake of story.)

Long story short: It's pretty hard to make a PC truly worthless, even if you play and build totally "fluffy." Make what fits your character, or optimize a little as it suits you, and either way trust the DMs and other players to work you into the flow.

That's all. Carry on with your discussion of builds now. *g*
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Re: Help with creating a non-Bob the fighter PC

Postby Shamsy » Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:18 pm

Thank you all for your input. A lot to think about, lots of ideas to look over, but feeling a lot more positive now! See you all soon!
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