An Adventurous Proposal

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Re: An Adventurous Proposal

Postby Stam » Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:38 pm

I am actually liking the idea of Fallout: Faerun more and more as I think about it.

It keeps our default setting, it keeps our city or area, and it gives the opportunity to rip out the significant bits that we don't like or were seen as hindering play.

PCs become much more significant in the survival of the town/city, plenty of new development, and explanation to newcomers of the setting is still relatively simple.

It will also let us keep existing PCs without a huge amount of work, or burn those we don't want even easier.

Edit: Apparently Fallout brings ideas of actual blasted-wastes, Mad Max and similar tropes, and not everyone speaks to that. This need not apply to our version of apocalyptic Faerun - perhaps it could have been a theological war that ripped magic or the gods away and less giant kabooms in our backyards?
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Re: An Adventurous Proposal

Postby Jiriki » Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:54 pm

Stam wrote:I am actually liking the idea of Fallout: Faerun more and more as I think about it.

It keeps our default setting, it keeps our city or area, and it gives the opportunity to rip out the significant bits that we don't like or were seen as hindering play.

PCs become much more significant in the survival of the town/city, plenty of new development, and explanation to newcomers of the setting is still relatively simple.

It will also let us keep existing PCs without a huge amount of work, or burn those we don't want even easier.

Edit: Apparently Fallout brings ideas of actual blasted-wastes, Mad Max and similar tropes, and not everyone speaks to that. This need not apply to our version of apocalyptic Faerun - perhaps it could have been a theological war that ripped magic or the gods away and less giant kabooms in our backyards?



I thoroughly endorse this proposal.

FALLOUT: FAERUN IS A WIN FOR ME.
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Re: An Adventurous Proposal

Postby Arrow-Bolt » Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:03 pm

Jiriki wrote:
Stam wrote:I am actually liking the idea of Fallout: Faerun more and more as I think about it.

It keeps our default setting, it keeps our city or area, and it gives the opportunity to rip out the significant bits that we don't like or were seen as hindering play.

PCs become much more significant in the survival of the town/city, plenty of new development, and explanation to newcomers of the setting is still relatively simple.

It will also let us keep existing PCs without a huge amount of work, or burn those we don't want even easier.

Edit: Apparently Fallout brings ideas of actual blasted-wastes, Mad Max and similar tropes, and not everyone speaks to that. This need not apply to our version of apocalyptic Faerun - perhaps it could have been a theological war that ripped magic or the gods away and less giant kabooms in our backyards?



I thoroughly endorse this proposal.

FALLOUT: FAERUN IS A WIN FOR ME.


If the game goes on a 'gods-killing-spree' some chars will be forced deleted due to their gods not existing any more. If it this is not handled with care, a conclusion where it will be unfair to certain chars might happen.
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Re: An Adventurous Proposal

Postby J.C. » Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:06 pm

Something I have been observing.

Folk seem to be torn not necessarily by the actual place of play so much as the tech and religious aspects of the particular place.

Well, taking a step back and looking, we have in Waterdeep an abundance of tech that has not been expanded upon, let alone delved into. The gnomes bring a lot of tech into the FR world, we just never looked at it. Now granted, some of the whirring gears and wheels may have some magical whim driving them, but nothing that is game breaking. To my knowledge, we only have two "techsmiths" among us, one hasn't quite come to fruition, and one is a recluse. We really don't need the tech to make this work, since only two have invested in a character that can make use of it. (I think I stand corrected, 3 PCs now that I think harder on it) but of how many PCs here, 3 is a very very small amount that want to work for it. So, that being said, I don't think any fix for the lull is going to come from having the tech given to us, which removes from any of my choices a "higher tech" arena.

As for the religious aspect of where we play, well, needless to say it has become overly bloated. There is a deity for sneezing, because someone must bless you each time. I would propose this as an alternative to this bloated mass of under-worshiped overbearing deity blob we currently have. Let us take a thermonuclear device to the entire pantheon and return to the simpler days of D&D and say we have a grand total of NINE deities, plus Ao. Just seems like we need someone with a bigger whip to keep the others inline.

This isn't actually anything new, there is printed material that is accessible for free and unlicensed, and this really makes it simple, you either have a deity that grants you spells, or not. This takes the characters back to the basics of alignment and makes you work with that alignment.

Now, as for the possibility of that nuclear explosion removing a part of FR, *shrugs* it wouldn't hurt if we put the poster of the map on the wall and blindfolded someone to throw a dart at it and see where it sticks for a new place to explore the surroundings. John made mention of a magic "cap". I think this may just be a viable idea to kick around as things progress. But I ramble and get off subject. First, we need to find a new place to live, and house hunting isn't the nicest of things to do.

I personally do not know any other place besides the Forgotten Realms, in my 40+ years of play, I just haven't gone seeking another place to play because it hasn't got stale for me, I am always learning something new. I am always looking for something new to learn.

Just some random musings by an old gamer....


If the game goes on a 'gods-killing-spree' some chars will be forced deleted due to their gods not existing any more. If it this is not handled with care, a conclusion where it will be unfair to certain chars might happen.


*clears throat* excuse me, but this is NOT the case, the deities are there, they are just not holding the hand of every individual who thinks they need their butt wiped. The D&D deities were real then and are still viable now.
Last edited by J.C. on Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An Adventurous Proposal

Postby Stam » Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:07 pm

Arrow-Bolt wrote:If the game goes on a 'gods-killing-spree' some chars will be forced deleted due to their gods not existing any more. If it this is not handled with care, a conclusion where it will be unfair to certain chars might happen.

There's always been a divine conservation of energy.

Just about any pantheon or domain will be picked up by someone or something else; characters following a certain deity may now have more to talk about, but they can either follow the philosophy/domain to whichever god ends up taking it up, move from following a god to following the concept, or they can realign as they see fit?
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Re: An Adventurous Proposal

Postby ManthisFocht » Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:27 pm

Let me start off by saying I really don't care what happens. My biggest focus on the site, for the 11 years I've played, has and will continue to be community with good games and good people. As Bex has put it, the "carpet and wallpaper" it happens in front of doesn't concern me.

Moreover, I don’t even get the stale feeling, personally. So I guess I disagree with the premise all together. I am exploring a new area, the Mere of Dead Men, that has been untouched by players and DMs for all these years - and as JC postured about what made the Silverymoon war so successful, I hope that it touches all PCs of all levels and can generate some IC excitement as ideas, clues, etc are shared. I’m very excited and motivated by it, and hope others are too.

My memory might be off, but the move from Silverymoon to Waterdeep was a unilateral decision, by the DMs, with few if any player opinions sought... There were mixed feelings at the time as well, but everything worked out fine and the community is still trucking along. Players new and old dealt with the switch in their own way, with varying levels of excitement. But ultimately I don’t think our attrition rate was any higher than normal.

The staleness, from what I’m reading, is not a setting issue, it is a player (DM/pDM/player) issue. There is a reason that Silverymoon began to feel old, but it wasn't because there wasn't anything left to do. DMs/pDMs were just feeling drained and uninspired after all the war business was over and a change of setting breathed fresh life into everyone, players and DMs. Everyone is excited about new PCs when they are created and are more eager to show them off IC, even for just a simple RP scene. Maybe folks want to move, maybe they don’t, but it is a temporary fix to what will always be a recurring issue – burnout and fatigue.

Much like houserules to the rulebook, exceptions and alterations can be made to the setting without uprooting the dozens of PCs and established stories we have here. We can depart from the setting timeline and have world altering events that involve existing characters on our own terms.

As I write this, folks seem to be excited about the Fallout: Faerun concept. I think it’s neat too. But to make it work, it would require a lot of planning, (p)DMing and IC – both adventures and RP – to pull off. I get that everyone isn’t Waterdeep/Faerun’s biggest fan, but the same can be said for others if we were to switch. That same energy and commitment could be put into the current setting as well.

I guess I just don’t see the point in up and moving every few years because all the low hanging adventure fruit is picked over. We have a large and diverse player base, not everyone is going to be 100% enthusiastic about every aspect of the setting. I think that time and creative energy are better spent moving things forward than arbitrarily hitting the reset button every so often… but like I led off with, I really don’t care. I can find something fun to regardless of what the carpet and drapes look like.
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Re: An Adventurous Proposal

Postby ManthisFocht » Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:40 pm

Regarding poll #2:

Once leadership went out the window, two of my 3 PCs became... less viable concepts so I've mostly abandoned them already. Likely holding off until decisions are made before putting time and effort into new ones.

Whatever option that lets me play a Gnoll gets my vote.
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Re: An Adventurous Proposal

Postby Arrow-Bolt » Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:47 pm

ManthisFocht wrote:As I write this, folks seem to be excited about the Fallout: Faerun concept.


I personally would like to stay in WD or just move to another Faerun nation....but...if fall out keeps us in Faerun -shrugs- ok I guess. I wanna be flexible but I also don't want to total over haul the reason I joined the site, which was a Faerun game world.
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Re: An Adventurous Proposal

Postby Seekerthefallen » Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:43 pm

I'm not entirely sure, worrying about religion is going to be the first thing to bring up. We don't really know what, and What we plan. So, I think deciding Stay or Go, Move or Blow up.. That's first. Then we can flesh out the details.

I used to write for God so many years, and some point in it. I had a big Cataclysm.. IT broke the land, it changed things..

Now, with that sad. Could, blowing the city up be fun? I want to all the time. I am so tired of the rooms, and the things we are stuck doing. So! Waste the city into ruin... I could almost get in with that. There could be a fault line under the city, volcano.. To many mages ..
"Even if you silence me, My silence will still defy you"-Me

"It's not Lying...It's Neglecting the important parts"-Me

"I'm Not stealing.. I'm borrowing with the intention of not returning."-Me
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Re: An Adventurous Proposal

Postby Mark » Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 pm

I'll make my sell for Eberron.

So I avoided FR in all of my gaming career until Jeremy mentioned making the DD site and having it feature FR. This was largely decided because of the mass appeal of the Realms and figured it would be a good way to get people involved and interested in the site. And, frankly, it worked. We got people not only due to 3rd ed (and later 3.5) but also because of the Forgotten Realms tag. I was cool with that and took myself to reading about the FR and all it offered.

Frankly, I have continually been unimpressed by the Realms, and I will give all the reasons as to why.

1) The high overpowered nonsense. I am a fan of lower level adventures and feel that D&D really hits its stride around 6-8th level or so. At that point, characters become noteworthy and can start being real movers and shakers. But in the FR, we are going to be limited entirely by what the settting has already given us. Elminster is what, 35th level or something by now (note: I don't want this corrected and someone to give an "actually" response. This is simply hyperbole) and all of the NPCs and so forth in the setting are cemented not only by canon and a wealth of literature, but by mechanics that would force many of us into epic-levels and near theoretical math stances of combat to try to make any changes. One of the great and fulfilling parts of D&D is the idea that you made a change of some measure in the world, rather than simply being handed some gold and notice your BAB went up by 1. FR, by design, forces characters into high levels and legendary plans to make that happen, and it's frustrating in this design of play.

2) Limitations by faith. In FR, gods are a very real thing. They have walked the earth and are present in every facet of your life. Clerics can regularly commune with their deities to ask answers to questions of faith. Gods can, and do, strip their faithful of powers if they don't like what they're doing. All that together strikes a sour cord for me. The idea of the corrupt priest, divisions of faith where there are no good answers (and not because the deity just won't come out and say what's up. Looking at you, Lathander) and the grey aspects of life and real world questions are no longer in play. I feel that limits a sense of creativity and sort of pigeonholes us into being unable to really explore aspects of role playing that go along with the questions of faith.

3) The divisions of good and evil. This sort of plays into #2. Good and evil are very stark and contrasting forces in FR. Much like Tolkein and LotR, there is no real ambiguity. There is good, and there is evil. There is light and there is dark. Elves good, orcs evil. Anytime good seems to conflict with good it is usually sorted out with communication. Gods directly tell you what is good and bad, and their faithful pay the price. People follow evil gods because they either want power or want to cause suffering, instead of for more humanistic and even logical reasons. Even normal aspects of human nature like Love, Lust, Zeal, Loss and Anger are split into positive and negatives. We lose the point where good people can do bad things in the name of good. How do we know this? Because we're directly told so from on high. There is only good and evil. Again, I find this dreadfully limiting.

4) Drizzt. Because fuck him.

5) A world without theme. FR is a grand and expansive place that allows for so many options in terms of exploration and adventure. I get that, and frankly, I think that is what they do best. But I also think there is no unifying theme or message that holds it all together. It lacks focus other than "explore and become powerful." Maybe this is my liberal arts background bleeding in, but I find that utterly boring. I much prefer a world where there are themes and mood and tone and all that crap you wish you didn't have to talk about in 10th grade English class, because these make for a richer experience. What FR offers in a vast variety of experiences, I feel that it lacks depth. And I like depth.

I'm sure I can think of more complaints, but those are the easy ones. Now, why Eberron?

1) Ambiguity: Give me grit. Give me grey. Give me a world that doesn't have the right answers available via a Commune spell or a knowledge check. I feel that a lot of great aspects of literature and film and television flourishes under this aspect. We see heroes question their actions. Good and evil work together for a shared goal instead of more often declaring (we can't do that because your god hates my god and damnit, you're LE and I'm CG....). While these things are POSSIBLE in FR, the system and way the setting is designed doesn't really let that flourish. It's the entire "evil will turn on itself" thing you hear about in Dragonlance. Evil is depicted as dumb and willing to grasp for the easy fruit while good is patient and willing to communicate and work together. That's a realm I find is too stark in its contrasts, and I would much prefer a place where the questions PCs have for one another isn't based in faith, or alignment, but rather where their view is.

2) Silent gods: When compared to FR, the gods of Eberron are damn near silent. In one of their signature changes, clerics of any god can be of any alignment. Now you enter into part of number 1 up there. You can have evil clerics of good gods who honestly feel that they are doing the right thing for their faith and people with no god to hit him with a lightning both and say "cut that shit out." It gives redeeming qualities and possibilities to good followers and good clerics of evil gods, who find that aspects of their faith is redeeming of mortals, rather than simply a route of causing strife or achieving power (as with FR gods). People can be devout to an idea, rather than having a name to put things to. There is no divine judgment for lack of faith. Even the faiths themselves strike me as less mythology and more real, with all the conundrums that go with it.

3) PCs with Power: In Eberron, things don't have the high stakes bit as they do in FR. There is no cannon 35th level guy who has his fingers in all the pots and is pretty much the top contender to the machinations of the gods. There are no heralds of old powers marching up to slay the top other old dudes because they are the only ones who can. It is a setting where PCs are in the position to make the changes, even at low levels.

4) Thematically awesome: Now, it's no Ravenloft, but I feel that Eberron offers so much more a combined theme. It builds on the above that I have said, drawing on noir and grit. It is a place sick of war but already preparing for the next one. It questions the place in society of an entire race of people. Pulp action similar to the Mummy and Indiana Jones are rampart. And, damnit, that's great. It gives an idea of themes to tie characters together with that work more cohesively in terms of telling a story together instead of the hodgepodge far off lands idea that you get with FR. It's Seven Samurai or Star Wars, with people brought together for a reason and with a tone they all share rather than the setting of FR (which, to me, is more like Marvel or DC Superheroes, or even simply picking one character out of all your favorite movies, despite differences in genre and throwing them together).

Now, are all these possible with FR? Sure, sort of. But I feel that on the whole it is so embedded with the litany of canon and so forth that it isn't possible to do. People will always reference those books, and be influenced by what they've read. But I feel a fresh start with all these taken into consideration will make a better game.

And I think that is what the core of my whole argument is. I feel it will make a better GAME and a better STORY. This isn't TableTop where the purpose is to finish the game, level up, save the princess and reach 20th level. Part of the entire thing with Digital Dreaming has always been the collective story we are making of the characters we bring together. And I feel we can tell a better story with this change.

Yes, it means saying goodbye to the characters we love. Yes, it means some level of discomfort to try something new. But that's so much of what we do in Table Top and all of our entertainment. Eventually, the story ends. Eventually the credits roll, the book closes and the video game says, "Start Again?". And I think perhaps it is time for that. We'll never be at the same point in the story and everybody ready for that because we bring in new people and let go of old people all the time. Some people are very attached to the characters they have brought to life and aren't ready to let them go.

But I think we'll do better if we do and try something more cohesive, while also giving us the opportunity to explore a whole new realm. It isn't about lack of RP for me. It isn't about lack of adventures. We can continue to get that out of FR. But I think we can try something for a new experience from the ground up. We can hash out the things about starting at level 1 vs allowing new PCs to be made with similar experience levels and so forth later. I'm talking on a bigger view and more grand gestalt.

I think we'll have a great time with it. I know it's scary and I know it's uncomfortable. But all things start anew sometime. And I think we now have the opportunity to have this happen and explore a new world, a new dimension and a new story together.
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Re: An Adventurous Proposal

Postby Mark » Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:34 pm

I move the stars for no one. You've run so long you've run so far. Your eyes can be so cruel.  Just as I can be so cruel.
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Re: An Adventurous Proposal

Postby Arrow-Bolt » Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:38 pm

Mark wrote:


I have not gotten a chance to beat Mario Bros 1 (Faerun) yet as the older players have, so I would like a chance too ^^;
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Re: An Adventurous Proposal

Postby Rosemadder » Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:39 pm

Really, i don't personally see the issue about moving the site so much about staleness . It's about practicality and what we the DM team can deliver for you. Please allow me to repeat a few statements.

A. Dnd 3.5. We are not remotely talking Pathfinder. Not on the table. No. That's not the game here. We want high fantasy. And we still scorn 4.0., clinging to our beloved older versions with our souls. Ok. Our cheap limp pocketbooks.

B. The DM team stated we really dont want to look at the darker options unless we get a massive push for them as a number of our players (myself included) will exclude themselves for neccessity. However, probably, with enough players posting about it, we will prob do a poll or something to determine what sort of thing you are wanting, though honestly, if you want darker than Cthul----, i dunno i actually feel safe gAming in the same party w you, you strange strange beastie!

Now, Waterdeep is way civilized. Even w the mountain under it. It has a good group running it. Evil does not prevail here. gnolls and orcs do not frolic openly.
However, places exist where you CAN play monster rAces and standard races next to them. Where pissing off the wrong person gets you immediately eaten or direly worse. We had envisioned say, in Eberron, a particular area of a border area where just about any awful thing could happen (gnolls!) and yet....

C. The size of what the DMs have to manage is doable. No infinite god list, or infinite
organizatios or nations....or massive NPCs list which ruin things if one isnt careful.

D. Houseruling the world into submission is what we are already doing. We don't want to keep doing that. While Fallout: Faerun could be an awesome transition, we'd really like to discuss---- but Not Force-- the possibility of a setting where the setting is more manageable without having to hack it apart.
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Re: An Adventurous Proposal

Postby tooitalian » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:55 pm

Since a lot of the focus now seems to be going to Ebberon and Fallout: Faerun, I think a list of pros and cons between the two is necessary at this point. Please note, I don't care where we go, my concerns have been expressed but I'm along for the ride no matter what. I'm not trying to move people to one opinion or the other.

Ebberon

Cons:
1. Some characters will have a difficult time porting over. I say difficult, nothing is impossible BUT it would require drastic changes that not everyone is familiar with.

2. New material and setting to learn. About 6 people have said they came here to play in FR, they only know FR and only want to play FR, or they have no desire to learn anything new. Moving to Ebberon would cost us players, and while no one is worth more than the other some have put in more of their soul in writing and development than others, and they do need to be considered a great loss if they left us. End of the world loss? No, let's be honest, life doesn't revolve around any single person, but their influence would be missed. A lot.

3. You can't make everyone happy, and yes while Ebberon gives a lot more freedom to the players, it is still not as much as a Fallout Faerun. The literature is already written, great literature but if we are comparing the two, Fallout Faerun is much more flexible.

Pros:

1. The literature is already written. Yup, it's a pro and a con. With everything already been written, it's less work and a pretty defined transition. Easier for us, easier for the DMs, easier to run games with prexisting material.

2. It really does take care of just about every problem that some of us have with FR. Mark did a job on commenting on that, I can't add anything else.

3. It would be a faster transition. We would already know what to expect.


Fallout Faerun

Cons:
1. This is heavy homebrew. It will require a significant enough amount of writing, and participation from every single player and DM. Not all of it all at once of course, but just enough to lay the foundations for every single player to build on.

2. This could very easily kill the site. A long delay in getting things sorted out, conflicting ideas, players feeling their needs slighted, it could all add up to a general sense of abandonment or disinterest.

3. Any games would largely need to be created with nothing but the imagination of the DM/pDM running it. For some, it would get tiresome to keep trying to come up with new solid threads and plots to torture other players with.

Pros:

1. Nothing is written!! Oh, think of the possibilities! Drow camps on the surface raiding cities and offering new random encounters. Band of players get together and take out said camp. Slave traders running around like it's Christmas because what government, you're mine fool. Waterdeep is no longer ruled by hard wired nobles, maybe RP your PC into the throne. Maybe be assassinsted afterwords. The possibilities are ENDLESS. Mutant rabid were-turtle monks anyone?

2. All that nonsensical math and writting errors that WotC use because they smoke the goooood shit? Gone. All of our problems with FR can be taken care of in house, in a manner that everyone will get to chime in on.

3. We get to choose if we keep or toss out our characters. Maybe they died during the apocalypse. Maybe they rose to be great leaders and are now an NPCs. It doesn't matter.

4. It's an easier transition for the players that can't/won't learn a new system.
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Re: An Adventurous Proposal

Postby Azmon » Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:14 pm

I like the idea of Fallout, but also have an interest in Ravenloft/dark themes.
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