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Class Levels

PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 3:01 pm
by J.C.
Hey, a thought just popped into my head that I thought had to be asked about.

Since we all now have the ability to have a LA+1 character as well as that same character being of 4 classes, can we make a character of 5 classes providing it is not level adjusted?

Random braincell explosion!


Re: Class Levels

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 6:06 pm
by Murdling
I want to know this too. Time was we had to leave that last slot open in case we had to add an LA to it, but now that precaution is unnecessary. I'd really like the extra flex in one or two of my builds.

Re: Class Levels

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 6:40 pm
by Seekerthefallen
I talked this out. Given that we already opened up a 4th slot and ECLs...

IF we did this, I would have to state there be a stipulation that:

Whatever slot of the above mentioned (4) is an ECL, that they can't apply a 5th class.

** It is not feasable under the current construction of the site to add any additional slots to the Scores system. This cost money and time, and it's just not something most of us have either of. That said...
** This leaves 3 perfectly useable slots for someone to craft a character with 5 viable classes. I am not sure what ruling was used to decide on 4 classes. It is before my time as a player and DM.
** ECL characters already come with a bonus to them. Now, whiether or not you agree there is equality in a 5class/ECL. That is is a matter to refer to the mention above. You have 4 slots for characters.

Re: Class Levels

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:28 pm
by Rosemadder
Ie for those still confused, i think the swift translation is:

Still only 4 classes per character.

LA+ n is not really a class.

We have no current option for more classes under any combination.

Re: Class Levels

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:01 pm
by Murdling
Actually I'm pretty sure SCORES already has a spot for a 5th one built in, we just never let anyone use it before because it was reserved 'just in case' for an LA slot.

But the LA slots are no longer something out of control that we need to have that reserved for. Granted, yes, an LA character still has to treat their LA as one of their classes. Nobody's saying that should change.

Re: Class Levels

PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:56 pm
by JuneBarcarolle
The official ruling has been that characters are limited to 4 classes in order to prevent "cherry picking" of class abilities. Unless there's a discussion that I'm not aware of, there hasn't been any mentioning of changing this. The "5th" class option is only for the ECL adjustment.

Edited to add:

The 5th "class slot" is still necessary for the ECL adjustment. If someone's choice of ECL character requires a level adjustment, we still enforce that penalty.

Re: Class Levels

PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:47 am
by Murdling
As far as 'cherry picking' goes I don't think that's actually helpful in terms of balance. I'd be very surprised if it didn't help the weaker tiers a lot more than the potent ones.

I mean.. you never need more than 3 or so classes total to break the entire game with Cleric/Druid/Wizard or their spontaneous counterparts so they don't even need to use it. Why would we deny the Rogue a little more flex though? He actually kind of needs it to keep up.

Re: Class Levels

PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:13 am
by JuneBarcarolle
Because we don't gauge the rules by tier 1, tier 2, etc. The idea here is concept. A character is more than the sum of its (mechanical) parts. It is a concept. Just grabbing a level here and a level there for an ability or two to "keep up with" other potential pc builds is cherry picking and is the opposite of character concept. If you want to play a rogue, build up a rogue. A rogue is not going to be able to keep up with the spellcasting ability of wizards and druids, but that is by design... it's a rogue, not a wizard.

If you really want to play the "ideal" character in terms of what you believe is the best, most powerful, tier 1 pc, then play that class. If that's not what you would enjoy playing rp-wise or mechanic-wise, then bring in a pc that you would enjoy playing. A character doesn't have to have all of the "best" abilities in order to be a great character. It's a matter of what you do with what the pc can do and the personality you give the pc that determines how well they do. ;)

Re: Class Levels

PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:34 am
by Mark
^ Like +1

Re: Class Levels

PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:44 pm
by Murdling
Alright, I feel compelled to actually say this for once. Probably because of the giant thumb's up. I'll be blunt about this. I'm officially angry, but I'll try to be civil.

Yes, I get it, the RP aspect is more important. However I really am getting tired of people making it seem like it's a sin or a failing or some shit to enjoy the mechanical aspect of the game as well. Some of us play for one side, the other, or both.

If we're not making things harder on anyone else in the process we shouldn't be faulted for enjoying the mechanical aspect, and that's the thing here. We're not. This is adding zero workload to anyone's plate. The system is already coded for it, and right now the only reason we have for why we don't use it is some sort of vague notion about 'cherry picking' class features being a bad thing.

People do that anyway. If you want to cherry pick class features from everywhere you just need to take ranks in UMD, or play a Factotum, or a Master of Masks. That explanation fails at the most basic level, and I haven't seen any other good ones.

This is the wrong game to be playing if you want things focused 100% on concept, because some concepts have requirements based on what the character can and cannot realistically do.

Re: Class Levels

PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:08 pm
by Rosemadder
guys, there is no us vs them on Mechanics vs Character in this rule.

the 4-5 classes thingy in character sheet section of the program is just a cheap way of actually writing the program. the ecl was written in as a class addition, instead of getting its own section.

so, no, Ecls cannot have 5 classes. no one gets 5 classes. currently.

this site is not 100% identical to the books in mechanics and canon. We have never claimed to be and we will never be doing so, for the reason that omg sooooo muuuuch stufff! and also. We are not table top.

I wish we could make everyone content but its just not gonna happen. Thank you for commenting! play on!

Also, what is with my freakin shift key?? sporadic!

Re: Class Levels

PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:21 pm
by JuneBarcarolle
Actually, changing one of the fundamental basics of the game as it's been played on the site for a decade or more radically changes things. I'm not saying the mechanical side's not important or that people shouldn't enjoy it. The point is, it's not the end-all be-all of whether a character can be played successfully or not.

By removing the restriction of # of classes, you are suddenly smacking everyone else in the history of the site who has played within those rules and enjoyed the game. You are telling those of us who have played that we have been wrong, that we weren't really successful, that we were being ignorant because clearly there's a better way to accomplish what we've done.

This game was written for a tabletop environment, not an online community like this. When the site was set up there were a few things that were houseruled in order to make 3.5 D&D function better in this format. One of those rules was to limit the number of classes to 4. This has worked perfectly fine for as long as the site has been in existence. (Keep in mind we also removed the xp penalties for multi-classing, which the original version of the game implemented in order to prevent people from multi-classing like mad.)

There's an old saying that says, "You can please some people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time. But you can't please all of the people all of the time." This is one of those times when you are not happy. We get that. But this isn't The DMs cracking down on you, or anyone else. This is the way we play on this site, the way we have always played, and it has worked out well. If you feel this is a game breaking decision on our part and that you absolutely cannot enjoy the game here, then I am sure there are other sites out there where this particular house rule doesn't exist. This is the way this site works. We are not changing it no matter how you personally feel about it.

Yes there are ways in which a high level "tier 1" character can break the game. And yes it's highly unlikely that most classes have as great of chance to do this. But does that really matter? The goal here is for people to play as a group and enjoy the game. The goal is NOT to see who can break the game first, or most easily, or whatnot. The goal is for people to have fun, get into their characters, and have those characters be successful in whatever personal goals they have and whatever group goals they have. So unless your character's goal is to destroy the game for everyone else, then it really shouldn't matter that only wizards/clerics have the ability to destroy Toril.

Sit back, relax, stop worrying about what other characters can do that yours can't, and just enjoy the game.

Re: Class Levels

PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:17 pm
by Murdling
I was a lot angrier about the probably inadvertent way that sounded to mechanics minded players than the decision itself June.

The giant 'like' didn't help in light of that.

Re: Class Levels

PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:56 pm
by Stam
Two clipped coppers from me...

First of all, dead PCs can't roleplay. Sure, concept is great, but sometimes you need more than twelve classes/PrCs to pull off something effectively. An ineffective concept that won't survive doing what it is supposed to do ... won't survive, and won't be fun to play after that. (See: Ian. Or Rose. Or any number of our more lethal DMs.) Stupidity tends to kill PCs better than ineffectivity, but in d20 if you aren't a spellcaster then out past L6 you usually need the help.

In the site's original launching/staffing, almost any kind of optimization was eyeballed harshly and considered MinMaxing. I was a raw tyro at the Arts of d20 at the time, but I totally recall being Harshly Spoken At for contemplating a multiclass trip for my original PC on the site. I think we're a healthy way off from that extreme at this point, and we haven't had anyone attempt anything anywhere near as broken as a real broken build ... barring things like Grunt/Fios, Berenind, Kaeldreth, and more recent PCs. The "real CharOp" stuff has never shown its face here, and PCs already dip in various classes .. they just have to pick which ones very selectively.

We've also been making any number of changes for the past couple of years. The sudden loosening of reins on ECL slots in general is more than enough reason for people to ask if that previously-unusable fifth class slot can't now be offered for non-ECL classes to add another level in a class that had been desired.

I can see at least one potential problem with allowing it, but cherry-picking or historical bias don't seem to be a real part of either.

Re: Class Levels

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:40 pm
by JuneBarcarolle
D&D has traditionally been based on characters with few classes:

- In 1st and 2nd ed most characters could only multi-class to 2 classes. There were very few exceptions that could multi-class to 3 classes. And multi-classing had to be decided at character creation. There was no changing it after that. Meanwhile humans could dual class but the most they could pull off was 4 classes.

- In 3.0 and 3.5 the books created steep penalties for multi-classing beyond certain combinations. If you multi-classed, you had to keep your levels within 1 of each other or you started to take xp penalties. 2 classes was 20%, 3 classes was 30%, etc. Taking a level in a favored class didn't count towards this limit, but you had to choose your race wisely in order to do that. And even with FC, taking 4 classes still meant keeping most of those classes even or take an xp hit.

Here are the site we've opened things up a little bit by eliminating the xp penalties an allowing people to freely pick up to 4 classes. The game is designed for characters to focus on just a few career paths, not taking a little here and a little there. Keeping within this structure means characters will predominantly remain based in one or two core classes with room for a PrC or two. This is how the game is built and how the game has always been played, at least up through 3.5.